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volume5 Chatroom with Mark Mazz

mark - Mark, how long did you work on the Architectural Graphic Standards project?

Mark Mazz- For the tenth edition, it was probably a four-month process. I also worked on the ninth edition.  I contributed a number of new pages for the new chapter on Accessibility standards.  I also participated in-group reviews of all the pages in Accessibility chapter.

mark-  When do accessible laws apply?

Mark Mazz- Accessible laws apply in several cases as far as architecture goes.  In the chapter we outline them in the flowchart to determine which Laws apply to which projects.

FutureArchitect- Most people think of being handicapped as in having to be in a wheelchair, but obviously there are other disabilities such as vision and hearing impairment.  Does the AGS cover those too?

Mark Mazz- If you're just a private restaurant, for example, the ADA applies because you're a place of public accommodation. Occasionally more than one applies, and a good example would be new dorms on a state university campus because then the ADA would apply, because it's
transient lodging, fair house would apply, because it's multi-family housing and section 504 of the rehab act would apply because it involves state and local governments and there's a good chance that federal money is also involved.

mark- What do other countries do to make buildings more accessible?  Are there laws similar to the USA?

Mark Mazz- Future Architect, AGS covers it only to the extent that it's covered by various accessibility standards that architects would have to comply with.  If you're doing a special project, such as a library for the blind, you would want to go beyond AGS.

mark- Is there a good source for that?

Mark Mazz- Mark , Accessibility laws are not the same in all states.  Some like to adopt the ADA as their code, other go beyond that.  For example, Title 24 in California, which is their building code, has additional requirement such as shower sizing and more complex signage.

mark- Does the AGS identify the next steps of research?

Mark Mazz-  As far as international, I don't have a lot of experience with that. Canada and I think Great Britain does have national accessibility and they're grasping a concept called visitability.  Which in new housing construction, the house is accessible to someone in a
wheelchair.  There are some advocacy groups pushing this in the U.S., but it has not caught on yet. Beyond AGS, there is no good single source. You would have to do specific research on an area for accessibility. So you should research special areas.

dan- But what about older buildings that are not ADA built and do not have access for the handicapped, wouldn't that make it impossible to be an equal opportunity employer?.or would the employer be required to retrofit his office to ADA?

Mark Mazz- Dan, The employer would have a couple of options, he can always move his office if he?s not the owner of the building.  Also the ADA does apply to existing buildings in that you need to remove any existing barriers that you can readily remove.

cassie- Does the AGS go into making ADA design more aesthetically pleasing?

Mark Mazz- Cassie, That is a good question.  We went over that issue, but my design philosophy is the best jobs remain invisible.  Which is difficult to show in Graphic Standards.

mark- In Germany, they now have a natural light law "more quality of life" every worker gets a window.  Do you see these laws moving in this direction?

Mark Mazz- mark, re: Germany , In regards to accessibility I don't see that as an issue.

Mark Mazz- For new construction, the cost is minimal. As an example, fair housing  with the standards as they are written, the national association of homebuilders did some research and determined that it added anywhere from $50-$400 in construction costs per dwelling unit.  So there are no states to show how much additional cost in the ADA.

Future Architect-   But what about a second story office with only stairs as access?

Mark Mazz- Future, If the building has less than 3,000 sq ft. on that second floor, and it has no professional offices, and a couple of other caveats, it's not required to have an elevator according to the ADA

mark-  That seems to be in hardware cost and not the functional floor area that must be built..??  office areas are bigger by 10% and just the Gross factor in programming must have gotten larger.

Future Architect- Last night Mr. Hoke mentioned that the cd-rom includes links todifferent applicable websites.  Do you have links to such sights as the Institute on Independent Living?

Mark Mazz- Where do you get that 10% number?

mark-  floor area per worker plus the shared hallway allocations... from our work at looking at pre ADA and post ADA programing.

Mark Mazz- On my website www.markjmazz.com, no.  I do link to other Organizations but not that one.  I had no involvement with the CD-ROM so I don't know.

Mark Mazz-  I would say that 10% is a gross generalization. Unless you're really small buildings. 

mark- We are remodeling and adding onto a college and there is a big bump from the old work areas (under the old codes) to the new spaces under current codes. More floor area for the same number of students = more cost to the college.      

mark- Are contractors upgrading existing housing stock for older people as a type of marketable work?  Are there loans to help people stay in their homes?

Mark Mazz- Loans are beyond my expertise as an architect, but many housing magazines for contractors are stressing the marketability of building homes for empty nesters.  Regarding existing housing, you're not
dealing directly with a developer type contracting, you're dealing with an owner, and then you do what the owner wants.

mark- What is the relationship between Civil rights and building codes? How did these laws develop?

joan- I was talking with a contractor today and he was commenting on how he was required to build a handicapped ramp in a building that was not accessible to the public but only to workers installing pipes.  Is use of building taken into consideration with the ADA?

Mark Mazz- The reason that the ADA became Civil Rights Law was because after about 20 or 25 years of disability advocates trying to convince building code officials to modify the codes to make them ore accessible they gave up and had a Republican president pass the ADA as Civil Rights Law.

Mark Mazz- Joan, yes, use is taken into consideration.  I would wonder whether there is a local requirement.  There are proposed revisions to ADAAG, which more clearly defines which types of mechanical spaces are exempt.

cassie- Is there any information in the AGS regarding floor or wall surfaces or choosing furniture for stability?

Mark Mazz- Cassie, good question.  The AGS touches on issues that are covered in the ADA regarding slip-resistant surfaces.  Which is hard to measure and therefore hard to enforce.  Regarding stability of furniture that is not something that is easy to show in Graphics Standards sections of furniture.  But the backs of chairs would be a place that elderly people would grab for support, so if you're designing a space and the furniture that goes in it, you might want to take that into consideration.


Mark Mazz- An interesting thing in toilet room designs.  When dealing with stability issues, it was brought to the attention of plumbing fixture manufacturers that people with disabilities use the edge of the sink to pull themselves up and the manufacturers realized that their sinks are not designed to take that burden and therefore wanted to be able to move their sinks away from the toilets.

Future Architect- I am working on designing a Fire Station and we have to take into account the ADA.

Mark Mazz- Future, An interesting thing is that he second floor of a fire Station, when it's a municipal fire station the second floor has to be accessible even if there's no public space on that floor.  Since the ADAAG is up for revisions right now and the comment period goes until mid-May, if you have heartburn about putting in an elevator, you might want to make a comment about it.

mark- why ? these guys and women can leap over burning buildings

Future Architect-Is it because the fact it is a public service building?

Mark Mazz- Yes, that's why.  There's no elevator exemption for buildings owned by the state and local governments.  The federal government actually subjected them to accessibility standards way before the ADA required private businesses and states to make their buildings accessible.  In 1968, the architectural barriers act required them to make all there buildings accessible.

Future Architect- I am having a problem with the ramp to the handicap parking?.I'm having to cut into the sidewalk because of the length of the parking space.

mark- There does not seem to be a clear logic to the law.  I think that brings me back to the expansive nature of the laws.  And the Germany window issue for workers...can a labor group or disability advocates expand laws, what is the process?

Mark Mazz-  Future, AGS has a page in the accessibility that shows at least 7 ways to do curb ramps, I recommend you take a look at type A.

FutureArchitect-  Great, I will. Thanks.

Mark Mazz- Mark, the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines is written by the Architectural Transportation Barriers Compliance Board (ATBCB), which is made up of half government agencies and half private entities.  There's an effort to have a well-rounded selection of people.  The ANSI (American National Standards Institute) is a private agency, which also writes a standard that gets adopted in a lot of building codes.  They try to put together their review committee based on representative in a cross-section of industries, so they have manufacturers as well as advocates involved.

cassie- I would think they would have to show just cause for any changes to the laws.

Mark Mazz-  And that's how various groups try and make the regulations levelheaded.  But occasionally things like elevators in firehouses squeak in. J  There's a difference between laws, regulations and standards.  ADAAG and the ANSI are both standards, which are things that you strive for vs. things you must comply to the exact letter.

dan-  Is any of it up to interpretation?

mark- It does seems that they pass laws first and then think them through.  How will technology help change the work place for the handicapped?  Will this change the current laws?

Mark Mazz- Dan,there is some room but you really have to know what you are doing in order to do that.

Mark Mazz-  Mark,Technology is really changing the workplace.  Particularly for the blind and people with dexterity issues with their hands.

Mark Mazz- The ADA as Civil Rights Law, does require you to make reasonable accommodations for your employees, but when it comes to things like equipment and stuff like that, you are moving beyond architecture.

mark- Do you get into the ergonomics under ADA? 

Future  Architect-  Where do you see the ADA heading in the future?  What advances will they make for the disabled?

Mark Mazz- I don't know what's on the CD-ROM, but the AGS should still have the anthropometrics charts at the beginning of the book.  I know that some have been developed for people in wheelchairs, but I'm not sure if they're in Graphic Standards right now.

Mark Mazz- Future,I can't think of anything specific, but it will continue improve accessibility so that people will be able to stay functional at their jobs and leisure longer.

Mark Mazz- How about one more question.

Future Architect- In your opinion, should older buildings be required to be retrofitted to ADA standards?

Mark Mazz- Future,to the extent that's reasonable, yes.

mark-  Thank you Mark, the AGS 10  looks great, do you do your own section drawings and how do you oversee the development of the book?

Mark Mazz- We sent in drawings for the AIA to actually put into CAD in their format, they redrafted them and then we proofed them once.

mark- Is there a plan review on the web for ADA issues?

Mark Mazz- mark, not that I am aware of.

Mark Mazz- Thanks to everyone for the great questions.  Have a good night!

Future Architect- Thanks Mr. Mazz for all your advice and comments.