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volume5 Chatroom with Jeff Haberl

mark-- thank you Jeff for joining us tonight on volume5.

Jeff Haberl-- Hello Future, Hello Mark, Hello everyone.

critical chat--Mr. h what is the most important aspect of the relationship between the architect and the engineer?

Jeff Haberl--Critical, Bottom line, the engineer works for the architect. What's really important is a nice cooperative understanding as to who's responsible for what as the project proceeds.

Mark-- If you did a pie chart of all of the types of tasks that energy is used in the USA ie..transportation, communications, manufacturing, HVAC for buildings and so on how big a part of the pie is energy that is used in buildings?

Jeff Haberl--Mark, It's about 35% for all buildings, and that includes residential. This is just the energy used in the buildings, not the energy embodied in the buildings. That 35% includes the heating, cooling and lighting of those buildings to clarify my answer.

mark-- What is the rate of savings you hope to see?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, I would hope to see 30% savings from existing building and 50% from new buildings.

mark-- Do you review the siting of the building with the architect?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, as an educator siting and understating the impacts of the site on a building are fundamental pieces of knowledge that must be learned by an architectural student. I don't work day to day with architects as an engineer. I'm an educator, so I teach architects to go out and work with engineers.  However, siting of the building is normally
something that the architect does. Unless of course they have an energy consultant.

Jeff Haberl-- For this particular conversation, I've been joined by Larry Degelman, professor of architecture at Texas A&M. FYI.

joan  -Welcome Mr. Degelman

Jeff Haberl-- Siting of the building may also include draining implications that may also include calculations typically done by a civil engineer.

mark-- We have been told that the next technological break through will be in low cost smart sensor chips that then feed info back to CPU controlling systems. Add the Internet for distance monitoring and better weather predictions and the HVAC systems in a building or a whole community could become one of the most sophisticated systems we have today.
From weather prediction satellite to the thermostat on the bedroom wall ( if it is even there in the future) One comprehensive system. Do you see the development and implementation of energy use networks ? As we become more efficient... How good can we get at putting BTUs on target?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, great question about BTU's. It touches on the topic of performance architecture. Which I think is the key to the future of reducing energy use in buildings. Performance based architecture is a phrase that's come from Donald Watson, it's a terrific idea for several reasons. It's defined as where the architect is hire to design and then a building is monitored for some period of time to assure the performance is as designed. This is a wonderful concept for architecture for several reasons. It creates a continuous money stream for an architect, it assures the building owner that the original design team is kept involved with the building and therefore the building is less consumptive than it would be if the architect and the original design team were not carefully monitoring the building to make sure it's performing correctly. Hence, it consumes more energy.

mark-- Do you see the companies that deliver energy also stepping up to monitor conservation? If It seems that one of the problems is that the Developer / Builder does not have the long-range incentives to build good energy efficient buildings. It only makes the buy in cost higher and the home loan is the most expensive part of any residence.
Is there a new way to develop efficient energy use in the current capitol / loan based system?

Future Architect-- Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest since they are in the business of selling as much energy as they can?

Jeff  Haberl-- For a new building, clearly performance based architecture is the key, with calibrated simulation and monitoring. With existing buildings, we need to continuously tune and monitor the buildings and then replace systems with newer more efficient systems. For example T-8 lighting to replace T-12 lighting, variable speed drives, etc.

mark--  How would the architect / engineer team stay in the picture?  Very true Future Arch!

Jeff  Haberl--mark, I do believe we're standing at the threshold of a new era with utility providers will work together with architects and engineers to provide services to the customer and not just energy.

Jeff  Haberl-- That is the old way of thinking Future. In the new deregulated utility market, utilities can no longer count on today's customers being tomorrow's customers unless they can provide less expensive energy or other services that will attract a customer.

mark-- Future Arch , instead of selling gas or elect they could sell comfort. What if you subscribed to (x) cu ft of HVAC space on long-term bases as a service and not the buying of a unit gas or elect...?

Kelly-- Do you do research on using energy efficient materials in construction?

Jeff Haberl--mark, they would because of the contract they have with the building owner.

Jeff Haberl-- If they perform and the building energy budget stays below what they predicted, they get paid a bonus. If the budget goes above, they need to scurry around and find a way to fix the building, get it back on track again.

mark-- But would that contract stay with the building? We see so many turn overs in building ownership.

Jeff Haberl--mark, good question. I would hope it would. It would be to the new owners advantage. But I can't say for sure.

Jeff Haberl-- Kelly, Yes of course. An example would be reflective roofing materials, there's a lot of interest right now in PV-Cladding for commercial buildings, and how does it work, how do you integrate it into a building design.  How do people like it? What are the energy costs. There are S.I.P. -- structurally integrated panels, that's catching on. There are new foundation systems that look very promising in their energy conserving characteristics, insulation block filled with concrete.  I think in general one of the biggest barriers to new materials
is getting contractors comfortable with using the materials.

mark-- Is there a real problem with "sick" buildings? Does making a building tighter make this a bigger problem?

Jeff Haberl--mark, definitely there are lots of sick buildings out there. ASHRAE has just published their standard 62-1999 which goes into this in-depth for commercial building and 62.2R for residential buildings is out for review, also takes a look at this very, very important problem. And yes it definitely makes a building tighter. In fact tightening the building is what has created sick buildings. Back when buildings were loose and lots of infiltration, we didn't have sick buildings. When people started cutting back on ventilation is when they started noticing this trend.  There is specific definition of sick. Usually it's a lack of ventilation, or the effect of humidity. There are some identifiers of sick buildings -- those
are drowsiness, headaches, and itchy skin, resulting in absenteeism.

Kelly-- Why would they cut back on ventilation?

Jeff Haberl-- Kelly, ventilating a building in an extremely hot or cold climate is very consumptive unless you have a specially designed system that has heat exchangers, etc. Historically, this problem started as a reaction to the energy crisis in the mid-70's. Building owners started cutting back on ventilation to cut down their energy bill. Over time, a society such as ASHRE has reacted, by changing and tightening the standards.  There are several articles that give an historical perspective on this.

mark-- Do you review existing buildings for this condition? How do you deal with heat/cool and air exchange...where is the line?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, absolutely, in any building, any owner should know what the ventilation rates are, and what they should be. This is the first step, in terms of how you deal with heating cooling air exchange, I don't know where the line is. It's just a fact that you need to provide the recommended air exchange levels for the occupants in the building.

joan-- What about giving people incentives to conserve energy?

Jeff Haberl-- Absolutely joan. This is key to working with maintenance personnel in an existing building. If they're not part of the team, if it's not being made worth their while to conserve energy -- theywon't.  Examples are many, in general many buildings the people who maintain the buildings do not see the budgets so they whether they're conserving
energy. Furthermore, there are oftentimes budget-barriers to conserving energy. Examples would include where if I have a budget and I save some energy, the money just goes back into someone else's budget. Secondly, with many of the building operators that I've worked with, they are driven by who calls them on the phone. They rarely get someone calling them about saving energy, they respond to Mrs. Smiths "Too Cold" calls or Mr. Jones about his burned out fluorescent light.

mark-- Jeff you may not follow Los Angeles politics but they just built a 200 million dollar school on an old oil field in the downtown and gases are coming up into it! The project is in mothballs ..

Jeff Haberl-- mark, I'm really sorry that this happened. There are ways to mitigate this kind of problem. Technology is available for pressurizing buildings and pushing the gases back into the soil. You'd have to seal the building, bring in fresh air, and pressurize it.  This is not unlike the Radon problems that people had up in the Northeast in the 80s.

Future Architect-- I think people have a hard time seeing the big picture. Everyone wants immediate gratification....they don't care if over the long run it saves them money.

mark--What about buildings that run at a "critical" rate... hospitals , college
architectural labs and so on where the building is 24-7 Do buildings need a rest? I meant, do the air exchanges vary over the type of occupancy use and age of the user (say pre school)

Jeff Haberl-- Future Architect, this is what makes architecture a challenge. You've got be smart, you've got to be good at convincing people that a little money spent now will save a lot of money in the future.  It doesn't only have to do with personality and presentation style, it's also that we have good computer design technology and presentation tools to help them to evaluate those options for saving money. Which can definitely help make a convincing argument.

mark-- That is very hard when that dollar is loaned at a rate where they will pay it back 4-5 times over the time of the loan.

Jeff Haberl--mark, the building systems are machines first and foremost. If they're designed properly and with proper maintenance they can run 24-7 for the life of the building, 25, 50 years. Now the building operators will certainly need a rest !

Jeff Haberl--  mark, yes there is a range of air exchange rates that are listed in the new 62-1999, they vary by occupant and function of the space. And there is a minimum for unoccupied space as well.

mark-- Are you seeing big changes in the control systems used?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, yes and no. Control systems in general have moved toward PC platforms with plug-in A/D cards. I think the ASHRE BACNet is finally starting to take hold and you're starting to see a critical numbers embracing it.   Critical numbers of manufacturers embracing it - that is. Third, the Internet has changed everything.

Jeff Haberl-- Does anyone have any questions about sustainability?

beth-- sustainability in building materials?

Jeff Haberl-- Beth, very smart question. That's exactly what needs to be sustainable. What the architect chooses, where it came from, how it's transported, how it gets cleaned, how it gets recycled. This is exactly the type of questions architects need to be asking.

mark-- not to go too low brow but...In one of the Star War movies where Luke is on a farm... the low tech / hi tech dwelling that they showed as the farm.... in this sci fi setting there seemed to be a very smart mix of the two systems. Half Amish and half buck Rogers. Passive well sited buildings with high tech augmentation. In a strange way this seems very American to me. How do you see this type of low / high development ?  Will that network come into residential systems?

Future Architect-- and convincing the client to move away from say wood and try a different building material.

Jeff Haberl-- Some examples of sustainable projects that I hold in high regard are Bob Berkebile, B&B architects in Kansas City has designed the new zero energy laboratory for the University of Montana in Bozeman. Second is Pliny Fisk in Austin TX, who has gotten the Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems.  Third project that will have some significant findings is the Robert E. Johnson building in Austin, TX sponsored by the
General Services commission here. Our laboratory is going to be measuring the savings from these buildings and we're anticipating some very significant findings.

mark-- are these on the web Jeff ?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, Bob Berkebile had that project on the web and I think he's pulled. He was being supported by EPA and DOE, but the files are still available if you contact him.

mark-- Don't you need a test horse to say savings? How do you do it?

Jeff Haberl-- mark, great question! The 1997 version of the IPMVP International Performance Measurement and verification protocol has in it guidance for measuring savings from new buildings. Which is section 6, page 121.  IF we follow this guidance it goes something like this: simulate a baseline building, one that everyone agrees is a standard design. Step two, add in the changes that make it efficient. Then step three, build the building, step 4, measure the data from the newly built building and then calibrate the efficient simulation to the newly built building, and then make adjustments. And then use the simulations to compare the baseline building to the efficient building.

Jeff Haberl-- Future, that is one method to compare buildings, but it's extremely difficult to control all the extraneous variables. It's better to use a simulation.

Jeff Haberl-- Any further questions?

mark--Ok, I believe you its just that there are so many elements. The butterfly in the forest ... If there are old men that like the windows open in one building... Do people mess up your work?

Jeff Haberl-- Mark, we normalize the people :)

mark--  Thank you Jeff.  I hope you keep an eye on the LA school! It needs your help.

Jeff Haberl-- Good night everybody, Larry and I had a great time answering your questions. Let me close with a glimpse of the future. I think on the horizon there are combined simulation programs coming that will allow for the accurate evaluation of the building as the occupant perceives it, and this includes the visual environment, the acoustic environment and the indoor air quality environment, and I'm looking forward to that future.

beth-- Thank you very much Mr. Haberl, this has been very educational.